3rd Edition Situation: Uncanny Dodge / Sneak Attack

[Pitlord]

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A debate about this recently came up on another message board, and I was wondering if anyone know if there was an official ruling/clarification on the subject of uncanny dodge and sneak attack, specifically:

Since a rogue gets a sneak attack whenever an opponent would be denied a dexterity bonus, and since uncanny dodge basically prevents someone from losing thier dexterity bonus, do rogues get sneak attack damage when attacking a barbarian from invisibility/surprise round/flatfootedness?

Thanks in advance.
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1st reply:
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According to the sage advice pages of the 2e printing of the PHB:

"Uncanny dodge lets you use your dexterity bonus while flat-footed but it does NOT keep you from becoming flat-footed".

So a rogue can sneak attack a barb but he is retaining his dex bonus to AC.
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2nd reply:
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You can sneak attack somebody if they lose their Dex bonus to AC for whatever reason.
Normally flat-footedness make you lose your dex bonus, and you are then sneak-attackable.
If for some reson you do not lose your dex bonus to ac for being flat-footed, then you are not sneak-attackable (unless you are also flanked, but that's a different story).

IMHO what the above quote means is: no you do not lose your dex bonus (safe from sneak attacks) - however you are still flat footed, ie you cannot make AoOs.
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What's it going to be?

[Pitlord]

About that first reply ...

The fact that you're flat footed doesn't mean you can be sneak-attacked. However as a result of being flat-footed you loose your Dex bonus to AC which is indeed something that allows you to be sneak-attacked.

Now if a character has Uncanny dodge, you would be allowed to retain your dex bonus, you would however still be flat-footed and you would be harder to hit. Since the requisite of being able to sneak-attack someone is not the fact that your target has to be flat-footed but that he has to be denied his dex-bonus, I would say that the rogue can't sneak attack someone with uncanny dodge, unless ofcourse some other situation causes the character to loose his dex-bonus (like being held, stunned, grappled or flanked ...)


[This message has been edited by Pitlord (edited 06 April 2002).]

[spyclone]

Yo Pit,

I don't like your reasoning here : the way you're presenting it, that barbarian could NEVER be backstabbed by a rogue !! Quite powerful, don't you think ??

I'd go with the first reasoning, viewing the uncanny dodge as a 6th sense that might save the barbarian from sudden dangerous situations. It will save him quite a few times, but not EVERY time !!

And the fact that sneak attacks can make a rogue very dangerous, even more than a fighter of the same or higher level ?? Well that's just their way of fighting. If you would put that same rogue in a one on one with that fighter, the rogue is bound to loose.

I think a backstab, or sneak attack, is indead more powerful in 3rd edition, but also more realistic. If an assassin really makes a good preparation and manages to sneak up on you and do his thing, there's little you can do against it.


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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change those I can
and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I killed because they pissed me off !

[Pitlord]

Well, I send these questions to Thesage@wizards.com but the way the rules are, a barbarian won't be sneak-attacked once he has recieved his uncanny dodge ability. However, that doesn't mean he can't be sneak-attacked at all. As soon as he's flanked, he'll be a target for sneak attacks.

Also don't forget about the fact that there are several more methods of denying someone's dex modifier to his ac. Uncanny dodge only works when you are flat-footed so it doesn't give the same advantage to other situations where you would loose your dex bonus.

Anyway, as soon as i recieve answer, I'll post it here.

[This message has been edited by Pitlord (edited 08 April 2002).]

[Pitlord]

Spyclone, just a few more possibilities that allow someone to get backstabbed as found in the Song and Silence handbook on page 86:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The general rule for the sneak attack ability states that a rogue gets bonus sneak attack damage "any time the rogue's target would be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC (whether he actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks the target"

Below are some specific conditions that would give you that extra damage:

It's a surprise round, and your foe either isn't acting this round or hasn't acted yet.
It's the first round of combat, and your foe hasn't acted yet .
You're flanking your opponent.
You're invisible and your foe has no means to see you.
Your foe is blind.
Your foe is grappled by someone other than you.
Your foe is climbing, walking a tightrope, or otherwise off balance .
Your foe is running .
Your foe is stunned .
One of your foe's ability scores has been reduced to 0.(If it's Con you can forget sneak attacking; he's already dead.)
Your foe is cowering.
Your foe is paralyzed or held.
Your foe is sleeping, bound, or unconscious.


Keep in mind that if your foe is immune to sneak attacks by virtue of creature type or some other condition, all your machinations are for naught. Even if one of the above conditions applies, you still don't get the extra sneak attack damage. Many ofthese conditions still grant the attacker other benefits, however.

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As you can see, there are quite a few more ways to get that sneak-attack in action and this is by all means not an exhaustive list ...